Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Bare knuckles period

Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    The Bare knuckles period

    Germany was the last nation state to leave Feudalism behind. With the advent of the new world and eventual World Wars came changes in conflict resolution. Europe was bound by different fencing traditions, The Iberians with their natural walking gait while weilding swords, German and Austro-Hungarian Saber Fencing, the vestiges of Italian Fencing... Like Brazil, the county fair became a way to advertise the newest combative ideas. Men like Figg would give lessons, and even entertain exhibition matches.

    Boxing would be forged out of sword methodology combined with how people fought in the new urban expanses. It would be a while before technical skills really held sway. Grappling and folk wrestling styles were known by people. African and Irish dance and movement skills would develop, boxing clubs would contribute by creating a means to train hitting, and all the while the primacy of sword theory would create a distinct distance, timing and method for launching a boxing attack.

    This meant that technique was still quite crude. Boxing was purely viewed as an attack and defend affair, it would take many moons for fighters to understand how to move different parts of the body to slip, to protect, and to counter the opponent. There was the occasional fighter who was lauded as using footwork and a more technical approach, but this has to be put in perspective.

    Fights were long because fighters moved slowly and deliberately between launching at attack into the space between oneself and the opponent and coming to grips. We will never know exactly when the technical brilliance of a fighter like Johnson first came into focus. We know that JJ was a marvel, and that he created a very distinct method for parrying blows and gaining distance on the lead usng pronation... what we call a jab today. But I doubt he himself created these ideas in a vacuum.

    So when did we start to see fighters with technical chops? Men who developed and used technique to become great and make it look effortless in the ring? Thoughts?

    #2
    End of the color line and beginning of globalization.

    What is considered technical and good now wasn't prior. Staying safe and protecting yourself is a distinctly *************** demographic move until those demographics are allowed a fair playing field.


    What became the "Black American" style has roots in 18th century England. It's held by those who are not favored by the powerful and disrespected by fans. Basically a class system.


    To say blacks, ***s, irish, suffered under a class system is not controversial

    So why would you assume their fighting styles were any different?



    Bringing up cats like Tunney is like bringing up cats like Dutch Sam to refute the idea defense wasn't important. The existence of an outlier refutes nothing but does display the refuters ignorance.


    Styles still have racial and national ties but no one disrespects a style for those ties. As in the commie style isn't bad because it is commie. The slugger isn't bad because it is british. The black american style isn't bad because it's black or american. Now we bash on commie boxing or american boxing or whatever based on the individual level.


    Wlad = bad commie boxing

    Usyk = good commie boxing

    easy enough

    No commie boxers can do well is a silly statement to make so no one does it.

    In 1920 no N are worth a F is not a controversial statement. So it was made.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
      Germany was the last nation state to leave Feudalism behind. With the advent of the new world and eventual World Wars came changes in conflict resolution. Europe was bound by different fencing traditions, The Iberians with their natural walking gait while weilding swords, German and Austro-Hungarian Saber Fencing, the vestiges of Italian Fencing... Like Brazil, the county fair became a way to advertise the newest combative ideas. Men like Figg would give lessons, and even entertain exhibition matches.

      Boxing would be forged out of sword methodology combined with how people fought in the new urban expanses. It would be a while before technical skills really held sway. Grappling and folk wrestling styles were known by people. African and Irish dance and movement skills would develop, boxing clubs would contribute by creating a means to train hitting, and all the while the primacy of sword theory would create a distinct distance, timing and method for launching a boxing attack.

      This meant that technique was still quite crude. Boxing was purely viewed as an attack and defend affair, it would take many moons for fighters to understand how to move different parts of the body to slip, to protect, and to counter the opponent. There was the occasional fighter who was lauded as using footwork and a more technical approach, but this has to be put in perspective.

      Fights were long because fighters moved slowly and deliberately between launching at attack into the space between oneself and the opponent and coming to grips. We will never know exactly when the technical brilliance of a fighter like Johnson first came into focus. We know that JJ was a marvel, and that he created a very distinct method for parrying blows and gaining distance on the lead usng pronation... what we call a jab today. But I doubt he himself created these ideas in a vacuum.

      So when did we start to see fighters with technical chops? Men who developed and used technique to become great and make it look effortless in the ring? Thoughts?
      My contribution to the thread would be round by round summaries of fights, so I will decline,but I hope to learn something of Gypsy Jem Mace,who wasn't a gypsy, he has always rather interested me.

      image.png

      image.png

      image.png
      ​​
      Last edited by Bronson66; Yesterday, 04:27 AM.
      billeau2 billeau2 likes this.

      Comment


        #4
        All of a sudden Bronny has interest in men and eras where he has already expressed the entire time he has been here he has no interest.


        Wonder what hand wrought this deed.


        Finding out Gypsy wasn't. Cute as ****.
        billeau2 billeau2 likes this.

        Comment


          #5
          I misunderstood. I thought the question was when did it all mix into modern boxing not when did it start.

          When it started is easy; late 18th century sees the beginning, 1820s sees the formalization, the sparring masters are the boxers you are looking for. When Sparring was a sport.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post
            All of a sudden Bronny has interest in men and eras where he has already expressed the entire time he has been here he has no interest.


            Wonder what hand wrought this deed.


            Finding out Gypsy wasn't. Cute as ****.
            Fixated on me now? Enjoy the ride,before Nurse Ratched pulls your chain.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Bronson66 View Post

              Fixated on me now? Enjoy the ride,before Nurse Ratched pulls your chain.
              Bro, you welcome for that interest I have driven.

              Of course I focus on those i teach.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post
                End of the color line and beginning of globalization.

                What is considered technical and good now wasn't prior. Staying safe and protecting yourself is a distinctly *************** demographic move until those demographics are allowed a fair playing field.


                What became the "Black American" style has roots in 18th century England. It's held by those who are not favored by the powerful and disrespected by fans. Basically a class system.


                To say blacks, ***s, irish, suffered under a class system is not controversial

                So why would you assume their fighting styles were any different?




                Bringing up cats like Tunney is like bringing up cats like Dutch Sam to refute the idea defense wasn't important. The existence of an outlier refutes nothing but does display the refuters ignorance.


                Styles still have racial and national ties but no one disrespects a style for those ties. As in the commie style isn't bad because it is commie. The slugger isn't bad because it is british. The black american style isn't bad because it's black or american. Now we bash on commie boxing or american boxing or whatever based on the individual level.


                Wlad = bad commie boxing

                Usyk = good commie boxing

                easy enough

                No commie boxers can do well is a silly statement to make so no one does it.

                In 1920 no N are worth a F is not a controversial statement. So it was made.
                I was actually hoping someone would seize upon that statement. The color line created a laboratory of sorts. Black fighters had to fight the same pool of opponents over and over. This created a difference in strategy and and circumstances. The skills needed to fight opponents one meets on occasion might translate slightly different when trying to beat an opponent who knows you well.

                Aside from that Irish and Black Urban dwellers both had dance styles that were part of combat movements. The so called "Jig" was a mix of both elements probably originally founded in the Five Points Hood.

                The crucible that forges great fighters from extreme circumstances is alas a melting pot that incorporates the best innovations... eventually!
                brodbombefly Marchegiano likes this.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bronson66 View Post

                  My contribution to the thread would be round by round summaries of fights, so I will decline,but I hope to learn something of Gypsy Jem Mace,who wasn't a gypsy, he has always rather interested me.

                  image.png

                  image.png

                  image.png
                  ​​
                  A lot of anecdotal info about Mace.
                  Bronson66 Bronson66 likes this.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post

                    Bro, you welcome for that interest I have driven.

                    Of course I focus on those i teach.
                    You couldn't teach a fish to swim.

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X
                    TOP