The Lineal (and true) World Heavyweight Title

[HOUDINI563]

Lewis dominated the division and beat Briggs, who beat Foreman, who beat Moorer, who beat Holyfield, who beat Bowe, who beat Holyfield, who beat Douglas, who beat Tyson and so forth.

I agree that since Lewis nailing down a lineal hwt champion is difficult. Wlads dominance is obvious but who did he beat to claim the lineal title? Many European nothings on his resume.

[HOUDINI563]

The idea would be that a unretired lineal champion automatically is the No 1 or 2 challenger. If these top two fight it’s for the lineal title.

[billeau2]

So are Tommy Burns and Jimmy Braddock, hardly the best of their era.

I don't argue with you, it's just that I'm so disappointed of a sport that had this unique concept of appointing champions, but which is now buried.

Ben

Want to address your concern. I tend to see it as a deep seated problem with our whole society that works its way to boxing.

About ten years ago, New Jersey, one of the greediest, most corrupt states in the Union, decided to try yet another money grab... States recently at that time, other Eastern Seaboard states, like Maryland, had decided that Black people who had ethnic braiding shops...an art that is informally passed down among females, needed a license to braid hair commercially. Not that soon after, New Jersey toyed with the idea of having a state license to teach martial arts.

Now, without addressing all the different moving parts involved with licensing martial arts through the state, one must ask what price we pay as a society when we allow a state to determine the legitimacy of an endevour. So for example, perhaps I am a 10 year old girl with very nappy hair looking to braid my hair... there is a state licenses hair braider, with 5 months experience, who makes mistakes, but is licensed, and there is a woman who cannot afford a license, who is sensational and been braiding hair for 40 years... You see the dilemna?

Ditto for the fact that while having a beer me and my mates called upon the cobbles, and I get punched in my nose...and really want to get that bully back!!! So looking for a martial arts teacher, we have a teacher with a state license for New Jersey, versus a guy who has taught martial arts for 30 years and been in 100 street fights, can teach what he does in those fights...you get the idea.

My point is how we look at any title as "legitimate." The first thing we are taught is that when the state steps in, the title MUST be legitimate...when in fact, this is seldom the case. So all these alphabet soup titles are state legitimized, they represent the attempts of an organization to determine, their best interests and then convince the public that this coincides with the public's best interest... and how does that work out:

One of the most exciting heavyweight fights in years was the David Haye, Derrick Chisora fight. A fight which the British boxing board did everything to try to stop because of their own self interest as a governing board of boxing in the UK. We see the various alphabet soup groups also set up fights according to their interests and try to convince the fans that this legitimizes a title, or match.

And fighters often go right along! KLitsko famously loved fighting his mandatory at all times, in the process avoiding stronger opponents that would have posed a greater threat. Lewis, bless him, rebelled and refused to fight mandatory fights that were garbage...Hence instead of fighting the limited John Ruiz, who had no chance of beating Lewis unless Lewis had his hands tied, Lewis chose to fight the very dangerously percieved michael Grant.

Unless someone is brain washed, how can they believe that it is somehow beneficial for a fighter to fight a lesser opponent for a STATE SANCTIONED title fight, rather than a fight between the best fighters for a title that means something through its reputation alone? NOBODY SANCTIONS THE LINEAL TITLE! No authority other than the fans...and that why it is percieved the way it is. So here is the truth as I see it:

The lineal title functions exclusively on its merits. No organization with external authority, like the government, or a council of fat cats, gives it legitimacy. Therefore it does not need to be validated in any particular way other than as an attempt to repudiate the alphabet soup BS and to entice fighters to fight the king of the hill, the best. If the lineal falls out for a time, perhaps because the lineal retired and there is a question of who owns it, or perhaps because somehow a very weak opponent won it, then so be it... It can be reinstated at will, by the people, for the people.

In this case, a talented fighter like Fury claiming the title is a great boost to boxing and a threat to organizations that depend on their legitimacy from a power source that does not have boxing talent, or legitimacy. For example, an alphabet soup group with a poor champion. Let people argue it. But at the end of the day the more people respect the Lineal, even if it has to make a reappearance, the better off for boxing.

Hope this helped Ben.

[billeau2]

Lewis dominated the division and beat Briggs, who beat Foreman, who beat Moorer, who beat Holyfield, who beat Bowe, who beat Holyfield, who beat Douglas, who beat Tyson and so forth.

I agree that since Lewis nailing down a lineal hwt champion is difficult. Wlads dominance is obvious but who did he beat to claim the lineal title? Many European nothings on his resume.

And notice that Vlad "always fought his mandatory" even when it was the weakest opponent by far, and Lewis, who got the lineal...would often ignore the mandatory in favor of a stronger opponent. This is justice with a capital J. The lineal is by the people, for the people and no organization can lay claim to it, which is the way it should be.

[billeau2]

It's a tricky one.

Ali announced retirement in 1979, still it didn't stop Holmes from being accepted lineal after beating Ali.

A champ retiring and making a comeback 10 years later, his claim to the lineal title wouldn't be much worth.
Fury stayed inactive two and a half years, yet claims to still be the lineal. Acceptable?
Well, I buy it. Just because I'm so fed up with the alphabet orgs.

Most times when a consensus is reached, there is a logical reason, as long as there is no confusion, or unpercieved difficulty. On the game show "who wants to be a millionare?" some of the best and brightest would go to a consensus if they were unsure of an answer, something they could do a certain amount of times.

In this case the people determined this decision and there need not be a complex rulebook. If it is consistent and makes for the best fighting the best, so be it...there is no shame in accepting this because it allegedly violates some condition of the lineal.

I applaud people giving it to Holmes... On the battlefields of Japan many Koryu battlefield arts were maintained for a generation when a dying Samurai would pass the art on to even the man who would later take his head. This was done so the art could pass on with a successor.

[Boksfan]

Lmao there is no such a thing as Lineal heavyweight title. It's just a fan made fantasy.

[HOUDINI563]

Fan made? No way. To fully comprehend the true championship one must REALLY know boxing history. The typical fan just assumes everyone who is called champion is the champion.

Understand the only thing that gives a boxing championship value is its history. One must beat the historic champion to be the true champion.

[billeau2]

Lmao there is no such a thing as Lineal heavyweight title. It's just a fan made fantasy.

What a silly thing to say. So tell me if fans cannot create, on their own merits, that which is considered the best, who would you leave that to? Promoters? talking heads? organizations with their own agendas? like we have now?

The lineal comes from the crazy fvkin idea that there should be a best, and that the next best should come from beating that guy and no one else... What is so fantastic about that that precludes it existing in the real universe?

And... what is so fantastic about improvising when there is a stretch, like if a guy retires and then returns, and another guy is the best? These things can he worked out as long as we eventually wind up, after the dust settles with a guy who is the best...And who got that way beating the best.

[Boksfan]

What a silly thing to say. So tell me if fans cannot create, on their own merits, that which is considered the best, who would you leave that to? Promoters? talking heads? organizations with their own agendas? like we have now?

The lineal comes from the crazy fvkin idea that there should be a best, and that the next best should come from beating that guy and no one else... What is so fantastic about that that precludes it existing in the real universe?

And... what is so fantastic about improvising when there is a stretch, like if a guy retires and then returns, and another guy is the best? These things can he worked out as long as we eventually wind up, after the dust settles with a guy who is the best...And who got that way beating the best.

I think Miller is the best therefore Big Baby is the Lineal champion of the world!

[Tom Cruise]

Lennox Lewis was the last unquestioned lineal heavyweight champion; that's without dispute.

Unless you're one of the folks that count 'Klitschko brothers' as lineal champion, it's been a scramble from there; Wilder-Joshua would be THE fight to establish a new lineage.

If you believe that Wlad's dominance eventually simply 'got' him the lineal Championship (Chagaev was never such a world beater for that fight to actually be determinative, tbh), Tyson Fury beat him to become lineal champion and then you have to figure out how you treat Fury's lay off from the ring.

Wlad was basically undisputed. Once his brother retired he was clearly and unoquivically THE hw champ. not a single person on earth would tried to claim Stiverne was the HW champion.