Comments Thread For: Tony Bellew cuts through clutter of Imane Khelif controversy

[SteveM]

the Caster Semenya case doesn’t prove anything except that a committee tasked with making a binary decision about an edge case went one way instead of the other. They didn’t determine any consistent standard that could apply to other cases in running, let alone other sports.

The rest of what you wrote is just repeating your conclusion, not giving an argument for it.

erm - i've been very clear about my argument - having raised testosterone levels when competing in women's boxing gives you an unfair advantage.

[SteveM]

I’m a boxing fan and a former amateur boxer. I have been lurking for a long time. I don’t post much, but the combination of strong and uninformed or poorly thought out opinions people have on this particular issue annoys me

you probably have a lot of insight on actual boxing rather than just the politics and semantics on this issue. You should contribute more.

[Roder]

The IBF president stated at a press conference that both Khelifa and the S.Korean boxer tested very high for testosterone. Immediately he was attacked as an unreliable source because he is friendly with ***** and his organisation is supposedly corrupt. This has become the norm in today's society. Guilty by association. It's a poor substitute for good logic.

for bolded - this is exactly what it comes down to.

Second bolded - they err strongly in favour of inclusivity. But in any case, having banned the IBA as boxing overlord they deferred to the national boxing federations. The Algerian and South Korean boxing feds included the boxers in their women's teams so it was a fait accompli as far as the IOC was concerned

Look, it has to be true that elite athletes have natural advantages over other people. It virtually has to be true that the best athletes have natural advantages over the next-best. In other contexts, we just call that “talent”. Testosterone is just one physical mechanism for this advantage but there are others. You already said you’d ban Valuev, so clearly your logic doesn’t depend on testosterone specifically. Nor should it, there’s nothing special about its performance enhancing qualities compared to other hormones or other biological traits.

Banning athletes who have a natural advantage based on some physical trait is the road to madness. Do you want to ban the tallest basketball player from playing basketball? How about the runner with the most fast twitch muscle fibers? How about the one with a genetic mutation that gives them innately more fast twitch muscle fibers? What if we found out that Canelo has some hormonal abnormality that makes him hit harder than anyone of comparable weight? I mean, there’s almost certainly *something* physically different about Canelo or Crawford or whoever, and maybe it’s innate. There just is no consistent standard you can apply for “outliers who should be banned” that distinguishes them from “outliers who are just fine”.

[4truth]

Look, it has to be true that elite athletes have natural advantages over other people. It virtually has to be true that the best athletes have natural advantages over the next-best. In other contexts, we just call that “talent”. Testosterone is just one physical mechanism for this advantage but there are others. You already said you’d ban Valuev, so clearly your logic doesn’t depend on testosterone specifically. Nor should it, there’s nothing special about its performance enhancing qualities compared to other hormones or other biological traits.

Banning athletes who have a natural advantage based on some physical trait is the road to madness. Do you want to ban the tallest basketball player from playing basketball? How about the runner with the most fast twitch muscle fibers? How about the one with a genetic mutation that gives them innately more fast twitch muscle fibers? What if we found out that Canelo has some hormonal abnormality that makes him hit harder than anyone of comparable weight? I mean, there’s almost certainly *something* physically different about Canelo or Crawford or whoever, and maybe it’s innate. There just is no consistent standard you can apply for “outliers who should be banned” that distinguishes them from “outliers who are just fine”.

Do you advocate then that everyone, men and women, compete as a single group?

We're only talking gender here and I think it's valid that women only compete with other women.

[SteveM]

Look, it has to be true that elite athletes have natural advantages over other people. It virtually has to be true that the best athletes have natural advantages over the next-best. In other contexts, we just call that “talent”. Testosterone is just one physical mechanism for this advantage but there are others. You already said you’d ban Valuev, so clearly your logic doesn’t depend on testosterone specifically. Nor should it, there’s nothing special about its performance enhancing qualities compared to other hormones or other biological traits.

Banning athletes who have a natural advantage based on some physical trait is the road to madness. Do you want to ban the tallest basketball player from playing basketball? How about the runner with the most fast twitch muscle fibers? How about the one with a genetic mutation that gives them innately more fast twitch muscle fibers? What if we found out that Canelo has some hormonal abnormality that makes him hit harder than anyone of comparable weight? I mean, there’s almost certainly *something* physically different about Canelo or Crawford or whoever, and maybe it’s innate. There just is no consistent standard you can apply for “outliers who should be banned” that distinguishes them from “outliers who are just fine”.

well this is an interesting philosophical point you raise. There are, though, standout differences. One of those is very high levels of testosterone.

[SteveM]

Do you advocate then that everyone, men and women, compete as a single group?

We're only talking gender here and I think it's valid that women only compete with other women.

and of course in boxing we have weight classes as well because strength is seen as a function of weight,, not height. So boxing separates out competitors according to strength (weight) - yet raised testosterone which increases endurance and strength seems to be ok with the IOC - warped logic

[Smash]

What if we found out that Canelo has some hormonal abnormality that makes him hit harder than anyone of comparable weight?

this needs further investigation

canelo may well be the opposite to this, recently we have discovered that canelo does not in fact have any balls

[Smash]

Testosterone is just one physical mechanism for this advantage but there are others.

it just so happens that its also the only one from your list that vada etc test levels for, i wonder why?

Why dont u get vada to start testing for height levels and muscle size etc might be a good idea

[BlackRobb]

Sad how the online troll losers terrorized that poor woman from behind the cracked screen of a used iPhone 12.

[OLD JUD]

Some questionable logic has been applied to this issue.
'She's lost to other women'.....So? Just how many variables surround that response? The other women were just faster to both outwork her and avoid punishment being just two.
YES. shock, horror, SOME biological women can outfight biological men. Whatever next? women driving cars? Flying combat aircraft?....Get out of here!

'She doesn't punch that hard' How about adding 'at the moment'?
A young Tommy Hearns left something to be desired when it came to punch power, that is until a certain Manny Steward had a word or two with him what if 'She' develops real power? DANGEROUS power? All because of that Testosterone.

How many biological male fighters even at top level are light punchers? They are still biological males with the potential of delivering that brutal KO.

'Should Nikolai Valuev have been allowed to compete against men?' Well who the hell was he supposed to compete against? Elephants?

Opponents fought Valuev simply because they though they could beat him (or earn a payday trying) this is a simple situation of 'what you see is what you get'. His opponents watched him and made an assessment, can i beat him or not? same as any other boxers would do.
No underlying issues, no uncertainties.

How many women will feel intimidated by the thought of fighting essentially a man?

Valuev, big, strong, and limited, Very limited. As shown by a certain bulked up cruiserweight with something like a NINE INCH height disadvantage.