The great HW men who wouldn't quit.

[QueensburyRules]

Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- - Ks turned pro before them fellers.

Liston-Liston was taken to St. Francis Hospital following the fight and emerged hours later with six stitches under his left eye and his left arm in a sling. Eight doctors consulted and came to the conclusion that he had torn a shoulder muscle and the injury was debilitating. Dr. Alexander Robbins said, "There is no doubt in my mind that the fight should have been stopped."

The Miami Beach Boxing Commission ordered Liston's purse withheld after the fight. When asked why, commission chairman Morris Klein said, "We just wanted to make sure everything was all right." After the doctors' report, the commission was satisfied that there was no wrong doing and allowed Liston to collect his purse.

Jack Nilon, Liston's adviser, said Liston hurt his shoulder during training, but they decided against postponing the fight "because we thought we could get away with it."

Years later, author David Remnick spoke to one of Liston's cornermen for his book, , and was told that the shoulder injury "was all BS. We had a return bout clause with Clay, but if you say your guy just quit, who is gonna get a return bout. We cooked up that shoulder thing on the spot."

Take U dum dummy up with the Hospital Docs, not some slimy mob cornerman.
YOU said Liston dislocated his arm,he didnt!

YOU said Vitali didn't quit,he did!

Watch! Listen! Learn!




Of the fighters Sdunek trained.

Rocchigiani
Gomez
Michalczewski
Grigorian

ALL TURNED PRO BEFORE VITALI !

So enough with the BS!
Last edited by Bronson66; 05-08-2025, 06:13 PM.

- - Liston didn't quit, and his shoulder injury was legit and not the slimy mob corner man who floated your petticoats. He was instructed by the mob once they had secured their new betting to offset their early KO wagers.

Sdunuk was a German centric EBU centered professional, not trained in American style and tactics but more on the Gentleman aspects of Queensberry Rules where rules are enforced and not ignored like blood and gut American refs. It never occurred to him to have Vit fight one handed to secure the dominant scoring advantage over Byrd who had been flying for his life

Look, we know U can't fight a lick and are predisposed as thick as a brick.

And as mentioned for other thickos, Foreman never quit a fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- - Ks turned pro before them fellers.

Liston-Liston was taken to St. Francis Hospital following the fight and emerged hours later with six stitches under his left eye and his left arm in a sling. Eight doctors consulted and came to the conclusion that he had torn a shoulder muscle and the injury was debilitating. Dr. Alexander Robbins said, "There is no doubt in my mind that the fight should have been stopped."

The Miami Beach Boxing Commission ordered Liston's purse withheld after the fight. When asked why, commission chairman Morris Klein said, "We just wanted to make sure everything was all right." After the doctors' report, the commission was satisfied that there was no wrong doing and allowed Liston to collect his purse.

Jack Nilon, Liston's adviser, said Liston hurt his shoulder during training, but they decided against postponing the fight "because we thought we could get away with it."

Years later, author David Remnick spoke to one of Liston's cornermen for his book, , and was told that the shoulder injury "was all BS. We had a return bout clause with Clay, but if you say your guy just quit, who is gonna get a return bout. We cooked up that shoulder thing on the spot."

Take U dum dummy up with the Hospital Docs, not some slimy mob cornerman.
YOU said Liston dislocated his arm,he didnt!

YOU said Vitali didn't quit,he did!

Watch! Listen! Learn!




Of the fighters Sdunek trained.

Rocchigiani
Gomez
Michalczewski
Grigorian

ALL TURNED PRO BEFORE VITALI !

So enough with the BS!
Last edited by Bronson66; 05-08-2025, 06:13 PM.

- - Liston didn't quit, and his shoulder injury was legit and not the slimy mob corner man who floated your petticoats. He was instructed by the mob once they had secured their new betting to offset their early KO wagers.

Sdunuk was a German centric EBU centered professional, not trained in American style and tactics but more on the Gentleman aspects of Queensberry Rules where rules are enforced and not ignored like blood and gut American refs. It never occurred to him to have Vit fight one handed to secure the dominant scoring advantage over Byrd who had been flying for his life

Look, we know U can't fight a lick and are predisposed as thick as a brick.

And as mentioned for other thickos, Foreman never quit a fight.

One question: Who paid the doctors?

But I agree, corner men are always suspect.

Historically speaking corner men have high source validity. But their reliability is at the bottom of the 'possible sources' list.

They are a very difficult historical source to navigate.

[Bronson66]

Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- - Ks turned pro before them fellers.

Liston-Liston was taken to St. Francis Hospital following the fight and emerged hours later with six stitches under his left eye and his left arm in a sling. Eight doctors consulted and came to the conclusion that he had torn a shoulder muscle and the injury was debilitating. Dr. Alexander Robbins said, "There is no doubt in my mind that the fight should have been stopped."

The Miami Beach Boxing Commission ordered Liston's purse withheld after the fight. When asked why, commission chairman Morris Klein said, "We just wanted to make sure everything was all right." After the doctors' report, the commission was satisfied that there was no wrong doing and allowed Liston to collect his purse.

Jack Nilon, Liston's adviser, said Liston hurt his shoulder during training, but they decided against postponing the fight "because we thought we could get away with it."

Years later, author David Remnick spoke to one of Liston's cornermen for his book, , and was told that the shoulder injury "was all BS. We had a return bout clause with Clay, but if you say your guy just quit, who is gonna get a return bout. We cooked up that shoulder thing on the spot."

Take U dum dummy up with the Hospital Docs, not some slimy mob cornerman.
YOU said Liston dislocated his arm,he didnt!

YOU said Vitali didn't quit,he did!

Watch! Listen! Learn!




Of the fighters Sdunek trained.

Rocchigiani
Gomez
Michalczewski
Grigorian

ALL TURNED PRO BEFORE VITALI !

So enough with the BS!
Last edited by Bronson66; 05-08-2025, 06:13 PM.

- - Liston didn't quit, and his shoulder injury was legit and not the slimy mob corner man who floated your petticoats. He was instructed by the mob once they had secured their new betting to offset their early KO wagers.

Sdunuk was a German centric EBU centered professional, not trained in American style and tactics but more on the Gentleman aspects of Queensberry Rules where rules are enforced and not ignored like blood and gut American refs. It never occurred to him to have Vit fight one handed to secure the dominant scoring advantage over Byrd who had been flying for his life

Look, we know U can't fight a lick and are predisposed as thick as a brick.

And as mentioned for other thickos, Foreman never quit a fight.

You said Liston dislocated his shoulder.He didn't.

You said Vitali didnt quit. He did,he told Sdunek , "it hurts too much," Sdunek said ,"no it will be okay," but Vitali overuled him its on the tape and Vitali said he quit after he fight.

You said Vitali turned pro before all those I named.He didn't.

You used to annoy me,but not anymore Queenie,I don't take you seriously,you're just the resident court jester,amusing at times but ultimately irrelevant.

You're right about me not being able to fight a lick, at 76 I have enough trouble getting my socks on and off,but when young, I gave it a go,something you cannot ever claim.

Sdunek's resume.

Fritz Sdunek (born: April 18, 1947 in L�ssow, Germany – died: December 22, 2014 in Hamburg, Germany) was a top trainer in Germany. He has worked with:

[Bennyleonard99]

I'm inclined to add Derek Chisora to this list. He simply will not quit the game. A true warrior and still world class elite. Huge respect for Chisora. Willard refused to quit vs Dempsey, that was awe inspiring. Vitali refusing to quit vs Lennox. Foreman and Lyle both could have quit at different stages of their epic brawl. Admire how Tua kept on trying vs Lennox though he was severely overmatched and outsized. Tyson gave a brave effort vs Lennox though he was just a shell of a shell of his once great self.

[QueensburyRules]

Each of these men were told (or knew themseleves) that it was over; that their title (or atleast the fight itself) was lost, but still refused to stay on their stools.

John L. Sullivan (vs. Corbett)
Jack Johnson (vs. Willard)
Gene Tunney (vs. Greb 1)
Jack Dempsey (vs.Tunney 1)
Primo Carnera (vs. Baer)
James J. Braddock (vs. Louis)
Joe Louis (vs. Rocky Marciano)

To those who say the men of the past were not toughter than the men today. Show me who these men are.

Tyson?
Liston?
V. Klitschko?

Once these men knew defeat was inevitable they found a way to quit.

I am willing to learn.

P.S. Please don't waste my time telling me Klitschko was leading on the cards. A fighter knows when he is about to be beaten, that's when the injuries always seem to suddenly appear.

P.S.S. I did not include Ali (vs. Berbick) or Frazier (vs. Ali 3). Because both those men were physically restrained from fighting by their seconds. I have no doubt both would have continued.

- - Except that Vit wasn't beaten, he issued a gentleman's retirement based on a shoulder that needed surgery. Has a PHd in physiology to back himself up...

[QueensburyRules]

You said Liston dislocated his shoulder.He didn't.

You said Vitali didnt quit. He did,he told Sdunek , "it hurts too much," Sdunek said ,"no it will be okay," but Vitali overuled him its on the tape and Vitali said he quit after he fight.

You said Vitali turned pro before all those I named.He didn't.

You used to annoy me,but not anymore Queenie,I don't take you seriously,you're just the resident court jester,amusing at times but ultimately irrelevant.

You're right about me not being able to fight a lick, at 76 I have enough trouble getting my socks on and off,but when young, I gave it a go,something you cannot ever claim.

Sdunek's resume.

Fritz Sdunek (born: April 18, 1947 in L�ssow, Germany – died: December 22, 2014 in Hamburg, Germany) was a top trainer in Germany. He has worked with:

- - The Semantics of the shoulder of Sonny first Clay fight were widely recorded, basically throwing his shoulder out while frantically chasing Chicken Clay around for the early KO that the Mob bet on. Not all the docs that examined Sonny were quoted additionally with no xrays or surgeries taken at the point of the press results.

You quoted a mob installed trainer saying they made up the shoulder injury. I Quoted the official Hospital statement.

All the fighters you listed were mostly EBU ama type styles and officiating. It was the Ks that brought over Americans since Americans were too scared to fight them in the US as Vit found out first.

I never advertised myself as a boxer like you did though I did a round with a highly credentialed AMA in our senior year of HS. It ended with him getting knocked into his parents garden off the paving stones where he managed to catch himself about a foot off the ground from being face planted.

You're crashingly pedantic with no nuance of understanding of anything but your French Snails that you bragged about as part of your "Boxing Expertise.'

[Bronson66]

- - The Semantics of the shoulder of Sonny first Clay fight were widely recorded, basically throwing his shoulder out while frantically chasing Chicken Clay around for the early KO that the Mob bet on. Not all the docs that examined Sonny were quoted additionally with no xrays or surgeries taken at the point of the press results.

You quoted a mob installed trainer saying they made up the shoulder injury. I Quoted the official Hospital statement.

All the fighters you listed were mostly EBU ama type styles and officiating. It was the Ks that brought over Americans since Americans were too scared to fight them in the US as Vit found out first.

I never advertised myself as a boxer like you did though I did a round with a highly credentialed AMA in our senior year of HS. It ended with him getting knocked into his parents garden off the paving stones where he managed to catch himself about a foot off the ground from being face planted.

You're crashingly pedantic with no nuance of understanding of anything but your French Snails that you bragged about as part of your "Boxing Expertise.'

I quoted no trainer at all.Liston was being treated for bursitis before the fight.The official hospital statement does not say Liston dislocated his shoulder and nobody else ever said he did.

You don't put liniment on a dislocation,you manipulate the joint of the bone back into its socket.The K's imported US fighters to Germany because initially they could not draw 2 cents in the States and that's well known.

You made 4 statements that I proved were wrong, but as usual you haven't the balls to admit you were wrong,its the same old routine and when you get called out, you resort to childish insults that are the equivalent of sticking your tongue out.

The only thing you advertise yourself as is a fool,on that you are very convincing! lol

[QueensburyRules]

I quoted no trainer at all.Liston was being treated for bursitis before the fight.The official hospital statement does not say Liston dislocated his shoulder and nobody else ever said he did.

You don't put liniment on a dislocation,you manipulate the joint of the bone back into its socket.The K's imported US fighters to Germany because initially they could not draw 2 cents in the States and that's well known.

You made 4 statements that I proved were wrong, but as usual you haven't the balls to admit you were wrong,its the same old routine and when you get called out, you resort to childish insults that are the equivalent of sticking your tongue out.

The only thing you advertise yourself as is a fool,on that you are very convincing! lol

- - Obviously U still embarrassed U quit boxing.

Young Clay shouting for Angie to cut his gloves off the first Liston fight. Angie wouldn't do it. Then Ali shouting for Angie to cut the gloves off vs Frazier 3 that Angie wouldn't do. The shame of that was Eddie Futch pulling the plug on Joe who was bouncing on his toes in the corner waiting for the 15th round. Their Ali monitor was a former boxer HOFer couldn't make it over to their corner to tell them Ali was trying to quit.

Twice the Quitter wannabe but for Angie...

[Bronson66]

- - Obviously U still embarrassed U quit boxing.

Young Clay shouting for Angie to cut his gloves off the first Liston fight. Angie wouldn't do it. Then Ali shouting for Angie to cut the gloves off vs Frazier 3 that Angie wouldn't do. The shame of that was Eddie Futch pulling the plug on Joe who was bouncing on his toes in the corner waiting for the 15th round. Their Ali monitor was a former boxer HOFer couldn't make it over to their corner to tell them Ali was trying to quit.

Twice the Quitter wannabe but for Angie...

I'm not embarrassed I quit boxing after nearly twenty years.I was never anything but a bottom feeder,but I regret none of it.
Ali wanted the gloves cut off in the Liston fight to expose what he thought was wrong doing a caustic liniment applied to Liston's gloves.

In the 3rd Frazier fight Frazier was not bouncing on his toes in the corner, after a bad beating in the previous round because he could not see the punches coming, Eddie Futch did the compassionate thing another round might have seen Joe Ko'd,and seriously damaged, no better corner man than Futch ever lived,he did the right thing.

Your ever more desperate attempts to dump on Ali,get more absurd each day.but ,as I said, I don't take you seriously anymore ,so no harm done! lol

[billeau2]

Shannon Briggs (vs. Lennox Lewis). If I'm not mistaken, Briggs was considered Lineal champ at the time. He showed lots of heart in that fight. I'm just not sure your conditions (did he have to have a major title at the time? Must he be considered "great.")

Thing is... Briggs is indeed a real Mensch. I would rather fight with broken ribs (very very painful) than deal with Ashma. Imagine trying to fight while suffocating. Absolute hell.