Where does Tyson actually rank

[JAB5239]

Thanks.

It would have been interesting to see Tyson against Mercer, but I still think that three years in a prison would destroy the engine of whatever heavyweight there is. One thing is someone like Foreman, who spent ten years out of the game preaching and living a regular life before starting his long journey back.

But jail is jail, no way a fighting machine like Tyson could have ever returned to his old self after that. And we're not even considering what was happening around him with King, all those money leechers and bětches, etc. I mean, after he had done his time there was not a single week without some woman telling she had been ****d or ******ed by Tyson.

Had he lived a cleaner lifestyle he may have had a few more great fights in him. As it stands I tend to agree with you though. To many distractions definitely took something out of him. Shame we never got to see what could have been.

[thebrownbomber_]

According to your previous reply to one of my posts, Bruno was shot in the 90s. Thus, being sharp against a shot titleholder does not look like a valid reason to believe that Tyson would have beaten Lewis and Holyfield in 1996 or 1997.

The fact is, post-prison Tyson was already a semi-ruined fighter. The last significant version of Tyson was 1990-91, when he destroyed Alex Stewart and beat Ruddock twice, with Richie Giachetti as trainer. That Tyson would have had a good chance to beat both Holyfield and Lewis.

From 1995 on, no way. His decline was evident, in hindsight. We were blinded by the quick KOs vs the likes of Bruno and Seldon, but the real Tyson was not that one. Perhaps the very last glimpse of him was seen, absurdly enough, at the beginning of the second Holyfield fight, where he looked strong and focused before the headbutts and the bite.

Bruno may have been shot but Tyson certainly looked alot sharper against him, who was certainly far better than Peter Mcneely and Buster Mathis. He threw combinations, something he stopped doing for most of his second career. I agree that the Giachetti trained tyson would have a better chance. He was giving Holyfield the business in that 3rd round and he looked far sharper.

[thebrownbomber_]

Had he lived a cleaner lifestyle he may have had a few more great fights in him. As it stands I tend to agree with you though. To many distractions definitely took something out of him. Shame we never got to see what could have been.

I dont know what he was doing at a beauty pagaent after the fight. He shouldve been back in training imediately after that ruddock fight.

[Tatabanya]

He was giving Holyfield the business in that 3rd round and he looked far sharper.

Exactly, to this day I can't understand why he bit Holyfield right after hitting him with the best shots of the fight, which was entirely up for grabs at that moment.

But no matter how reality unfolds in front of one's eyes, Tyson haters keep narrating another story ("Holyfield was kicking his ass again", etc.). In actuality, Holyfield hit Tyson with ONE great punch - in the first round. Tyson took it and immediately replied with a huge left hook.

[Marchegiano]

Undisputed Title Defenses:

Louis - 26? I thought it was 25 but I forget **** and wiki's got 26 sourced on a dead link One reign

Burns - 14 (some don't count his newpaper win, so 13 then) in a single reign

Ali - 11 in 3 combined reigns as undisputed.

Jeffries - 7 in one reign

Tyson/Marciano/Patterson/Johnson - 6 each. Patterson's reigns combined.

Charles/Frazier - 4 each both single reigns.

Holyfield - 3 one reign

Dempsey/Tunney/Foreman - 2 all in single reigns.

Schmeling/Carnera/Walcott/Willard/Corbett/Liston - 1 defense each, 1 reign each.

The rest are 0's of course

To be tied with Marciano,Patterson's combined, and Johnson is no shame at all

Jeffries, Burns, Ali, and Louis are a fine top four ATGs anyway.

Tyson's one of the greatest champions of all time. A top ten without a doubt.

[them_apples]

I was reconsidering this paragraph. Don't you think that, using the same criteria, Holyfield's wins against Tyson should then be greatly diminished?

Tyson had been jailed for three years; that alone destroys psyche and automatisms. When he got out of the slammer, Don King paved a comfortable road for him with McNeeley (enough said), blubbery Buster Mathis, scared-as-hell Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon, who was probably paid to go down. Tyson himself looked dead serious after both the McNeeley and Seldon farces. He knew that there was something wrong with King's dealings.

Therefore, he was not ready at all against Holyfield, in spite of being a WBC/WBA titlist. He fought EIGHT rounds total against the four above mentioned opponents; that doesn't qualify as being "warmed up" for someone like Holyfield. Much less being "mentally prepared", in fact Tyson entered the first Holyfield fight convinced of blowing him out in one or two rounds like the others.

On the other hand, Evander was considered shot in 1996, so there you go... Yet another example of impossibility of a precise ranking of Tyson.

I definitely do, his wins over Tyson aren't amazing from a HOF standpoint, they are just good wins becaus Holyfield was indeed past it by the time he faced Tyson.

[BKM-]

Good points. Just one quick question. Wasn't Tyson set to face Holyfield if he were to beat Douglas? And then wasn't that fight scheduled again later but then cancelled after Tyson went to prison? Or are you saying this fight could have been made before then or sooner than 1996 when Tyson was released from prison?

There was atleast one scheduled fight between Tyson and Holyfield which fell through because Tyson claimed he injured his ribs. I can't remember if that was before or after the Douglas fight. But that's for the claim that he was 'scheduled, therefore he would have faced Evander'.

Nevertheless, Tyson before violently raping a fragile girl, fought Ruddock twice, Stewart, Tillman, Douglas, Williams, Bruno(I'm gonna set the period after he beat Spinks for the ring 'title' which is when HW-Holyfield and comeback-Foreman were on the map). That's 6 fights in a span of 3 years against journeymen, some of them shouldn't have even been in the ring with a champion like him.

This is before his prison stint(he ducked plenty after too). So 6 useless opponents all tailor made for him, every single one of them known for mental weakness and china chins. There was plenty of time for him to face Holyfield and/or Foreman during this, they were extremely dangerous and worthy big PPV megafights.

Tyson avoided them because A-They did not fear him. B-They would have bullied the bully. C-They were terrible style mismatches. He feared Evander since the amateurs and he feared Foreman since watching the Foreman-Frazier films in the catskills.

I stick with the facts, others can listen to sob stories and excuses from Tatabanya.

[BKM-]

Exactly, to this day I can't understand why he bit Holyfield right after hitting him with the best shots of the fight, which was entirely up for grabs at that moment.

But no matter how reality unfolds in front of one's eyes, Tyson haters keep narrating another story ("Holyfield was kicking his ass again", etc.). In actuality, Holyfield hit Tyson with ONE great punch - in the first round. Tyson took it and immediately replied with a huge left hook.

It's incredibly easy to understand why that was Tyson's breaking point. It was because as you said, Tyson was having his best round in the entire trilogy, and that was STILL not enough to put even a slight dent in Holyfield's resolve.

To a mentally weak bully like Tyson, it's absolutely devastating to hit an opponent with your best shots and not only is it not having any effect, he's still hitting you back!

I have always said that something similar happened in the first fight. Tyson hit Evander with his best shot in the opening seconds of the fight, rocking him. And that was the worst thing he could have done. Evander and Mike both knew from the start that he could take his best shot. It was already over after the first punch.

[Tatabanya]

Tyson was having his best round in the entire trilogy, and that was STILL not enough to put even a slight dent in Holyfield's resolve.

Well, a couple of nice hooks that don't knock the opponent out are not sufficient, even for a bully, to determine that he is not going to win a fight.

What I saw is Tyson starting the round with the intention of hurting Holyfield, one way or another. Had he been smarter, the slight dent would have appeared at one point. Via regular punches, I mean. But he was too enraged for the headbutts, and, on this I agree with you, frustrated by Evander's resolve.

I have always said that something similar happened in the first fight. Tyson hit Evander with his best shot in the opening seconds of the fight, rocking him. And that was the worst thing he could have done. Evander and Mike both knew from the start that he could take his best shot. It was already over after the first punch.

Watch the fight again. The actual moment when Tyson starts understanding that he's not going to win is when he gets knocked down with that body shot. Just look at the disbelief in his face when his butt hits the mat. Still, he kept fighting until the end, there was no quit in him. He took his beating like a man. Holyfield was just perfect, that night. That version of Tyson was not enough for him.

[thebrownbomber_]

"Carl Williams is a journeymen" LOL. Sheesh I never knew that Journeymen were ranked #1 by the IBF/WBA. BTW- Williams arguably beat Holmes in 1985.

"Buster Douglas is a journeyman" LOL Didn't know that journeymen fight for titles 3 years before.

"Razor Ruddock is a journeymen and is china chinned". Wow. Never knew that journeymen were ranked #2 by all 2 major bodies. Also, makes sense that Ruddock was china chinned considering the fact that Tyson beat him up dropped him 3 times broke his jaw and hospitized him.

"Frank Bruno was a journeyman". Yes, Joruneymen are number one contenders, and win world titles (Bruno did in 95).

Our friend here (who loves using ad hominem attacks and has put me on his ignore list) cant tell the difference between a Journeman and a Contender. Razor Ruddock is a journeyman but ray mercer was something special.