Where does Tyson actually rank

[Tatabanya]

I stick with the facts, others can listen to sob stories and excuses from Tatabanya.

What I report are facts as well. The difference is that I am objective and respect Holyfield's accomplishments, whereas you just hate Tyson blindly. I understand in part, given that I myself used to despise Oscar De La Hoya in the same way that you despise Tyson.

However, in other posts you admitted that Tyson belongs in the all-time top 15, and called him a "champion". But, at the same time, you say that he fought inferior opposition and was just a phony supported by the media hype.

So, where is coherence?

[thebrownbomber_]

Watch the fight again. The actual moment when Tyson starts understanding that he's not going to win is when he gets knocked down with that body shot. Just look at the disbelief in his face when his butt hits the mat. Still, he kept fighting until the end, there was no quit in him. He took his beating like a man. Holyfield was just perfect, that night. That version of Tyson was not enough for him.

Its funny becuase Tyson actually had his best round in round 5, meaning he still stayed in the fight and fought on.

[them_apples]

What I report are facts as well. The difference is that I am objective and respect Holyfield's accomplishments, whereas you just hate Tyson blindly. I understand in part, given that I myself used to despise Oscar De La Hoya in the same way that you despise Tyson.

However, in other posts you admitted that Tyson belongs in the all-time top 15, and called him a "great champion". But, at the same time, you say that he fought inferior opposition and was just a phony supported by the media hype.

So, where is coherence?

I agree with both of you, this is why I made a thread about it. Tyson is getting downplayed by educated boxing fans like BKM, and tends to get overhyped by less educated fans (not saying you arent educated, I don't know yet lol) but we need to come to a middle ground

Holyfields wins over Tyson are not ATG status, and Tyson wins over Holmes and Spinks certainly arent either. They are mid tier wins from an ATG stand point.

[Tatabanya]

I agree with both of you, this is why I made a thread about it. Tyson is getting downplayed by educated boxing fans like BKM, and tends to get overhyped by less educated fans (not saying you arent educated, I don't know yet lol) but we need to come to a middle ground

I exchanged words with BKM a lot of times in the past, I know he's a good kid, we just have fun with each other every once in a while. He hates Tyson, I like Tyson, and we fight on this exclusively.

As for me, I'm 56 and started watching boxing in 1971. I still think I'm objective enough

[Tatabanya]

Its funny becuase Tyson actually had his best round in round 5, meaning he still stayed in the fight and fought on.

Very true. That was a great fight, where both opponents gave them all. Tyson tried his best that night, but Holyfield was better.

[Tatabanya]

Holyfields wins over Tyson are not ATG status, and Tyson wins over Holmes and Spinks certainly arent either. They are mid tier wins from an ATG stand point.

In fact, I happen to think that the ATG status should not exclusively depend on "who has he beaten?". It's important, yes, but there are also other factors to consider.

[BKM-]

Well, a couple of nice hooks that don't knock the opponent out are not sufficient, even for a bully, to determine that he is not going to win a fight.

What I saw is Tyson starting the round with the intention of hurting Holyfield, one way or another. Had he been smarter, the slight dent would have appeared at one point. Via regular punches, I mean. But he was too enraged for the headbutts, and, on this I agree with you, frustrated by Evander's resolve.

Tyson has always stated that he was afraid before his fights, not about getting hurt but about being humiliated. He was shook before the rematch, terrified that the same thing would happen again. Look at this iconic gif. It's the first time Tyson ever looked visibly intimidated and someone gave him a taste of his own medicine. Evander stared him down:

You would never see him like that again before or after, looking shook and avoiding eye contact.

So you can try to pin it all on the headbutts as much as you want but the fact will always remain that Evander never stood down, never stopped hitting him back and taking it to him. So in fight 2 when he was having his best round in the trilogy to no avail, he simply couldn't deal with it anymore. Also, when exactly did Tyson spit his mouthpiece out? That's the point when he made the decision to bite for a DQ.

Watch the fight again. The actual moment when Tyson starts understanding that he's not going to win is when he gets knocked down with that body shot. Just look at the disbelief in his face when his butt hits the mat. Still, he kept fighting until the end, there was no quit in him. He took his beating like a man. Holyfield was just perfect, that night. That version of Tyson was not enough for him.

No it was much sooner, the actual moment was either when Tyson rammed his own forehead into Evander's head and pretended that he got headbutted or when he tried to armlock Evander and injure him which resulted in Evander nearly throwing Tyson out of the ring (He was so strong at that time). So that showed again that this was a man who was trying to find a way out of his humiliation.

[Noelanthony]

Tyson was a great fighter, but the idea that he lost to top competition is simply not true. He beat all the number one contenders and wiped out every 80s Heavyweight champion in menacing fashion. Yes, he lost to Holyfiled, but that was when he had fought 18 minutes in 4 years. Yes, he lost to Lennox, but Lennox would have his best win a year later and Tyson was just a mess after 2001. He did beat Andrew Golota though. I still rate him under Lennox Lewis and Holyfield though.

If he fought Lennox in his prime( I hate using this excuse) with Lewis’s chin he would have knocked him spark out but based on accomplishments and longevity you have to rate him below Lewis grudgingly

[BKM-]

Holyfields wins over Tyson are not ATG status, and Tyson wins over Holmes and Spinks certainly arent either. They are mid tier wins from an ATG stand point.

They absolutely are. Tyson had been collecting belts by beating the same level of competition he beat during his first run in the 80s. He was very fast, explosive, punched in combinations and still had an iron chin, he nearly went the distance with Evander while taking a beating. Just because he wasn't the same pre-**** doesn't mean he was washed up.

Evander was the one who was considered washed up, had way more fight mileage on him and was the underdog. This makes both fights ATG wins for him.

[Noelanthony]

Tyson has always stated that he was afraid before his fights, not about getting hurt but about being humiliated. He was shook before the rematch, terrified that the same thing would happen again. Look at this iconic gif. It's the first time Tyson ever looked visibly intimidated and someone gave him a taste of his own medicine. Evander stared him down:

You would never see him like that again before or after, looking shook and avoiding eye contact.

So you can try to pin it all on the headbutts as much as you want but the fact will always remain that Evander never stood down, never stopped hitting him back and taking it to him. So in fight 2 when he was having his best round in the trilogy to no avail, he simply couldn't deal with it anymore. Also, when exactly did Tyson spit his mouthpiece out? That's the point when he made the decision to bite for a DQ.



No it was much sooner, the actual moment was either when Tyson rammed his own forehead into Evander's head and pretended that he got headbutted or when he tried to armlock Evander and injure him which resulted in Evander nearly throwing Tyson out of the ring (He was so strong at that time). So that showed again that this was a man who was trying to find a way out of his humiliation.

I hated Evander for this. He humbled my idol. Which is why he is on my all time list of heavyweights at number 94. 1 behind Dereck Chisora and two in front of Herbie hide